Effigies interview-with the lead singer and the manager after the Septmber 17, 1982 gig at the Wilson Center in DC. Interview originally conducted by Steve Kiviat, and it appeared in Thrillseeker #2. Special thanks to Steve for permission to reprint it.
TS: Has this been a great tour so far?
John: Typical. So far, theoretically we would have had 5 gigs under our belt, we've done two; one was an unscheduled one. Our whole Canada tour was a piece of shit. The whole thing just didn't work. The club in Toronto closed down the night we played there. They had a real big crowd, but there was some trouble. Some kid got his leg broken. Up there they like to fight each other, and that's about all there is to it. In Montreal we didn't meet anybody who was into anything. All we did was meet the guy who supposedly ran the club, they didn't even know we were showing up-that turned out to be a whole bomb.
John Babbin: Because of Jamil Miller of Jam-Jam Productions!
John: This is a real big show. The only time we get gigs like this is out in L.A. when we played with Antipasti or in San Francisco with the Dead Kennedys, headlining on New Year's Eve before 1,500 people. Aside from that, we don't play to audiences like this.
TS: How's the single going?
John: Alot of people don't know about it really. We put alot of work into all our records, it's amazing how some records sell more than others. Alot of people don't even know who we are. We're still a relatively obscure band. We get our name dropped once in awhile, but usually we're bracketed with a bunch of groups that we are not really interested in.
TS: You're not identified with that whole Midwest Necros thing?
John: That's Detroit and Ohio basically; Detroit thrash. We're not in with the same bunch of people. I mean, they're good bands, but we got our own thing going in Chicago. Chicago's ostracized by every other scene there is.
TS: Is it because underage people can't get in?
John: That's one thing.
John Babbin: The distances between Detroit and Chicago aren't that close...and there has been a lack of communication in general.
John: We have a steady bar following because sometimes our music verges on heavy metal, though I (actually) hate heavy metal. Alot of people who won't go to see punk bands will go to see the Effigies only cause we've been playing around and we're familiar. But in Chicago we get no press at all, we've got a few good radio shows; we have this one big radio station WNUR, Northwestern University, which is run by a bunch of Eastern preppies. They get into the stuff that's really big in England, the "dance" thing. Then here's a "hardcore" set, Black Flag, the Effigies, and the Dead Kennedy's. Their token punk set...These people don't understand what we've been saying, there's two kinds of music-there's good and there's bad. There can be good punk music just like there can be good anything else. Trends, to hell with them. Punk was yesterday's papers to the trendies on the other hand there is some good things coming out. There's not really that much, I personally don't like most of it. I think what we're doing is good, cause in my town, there was no band like us, so that's almost why the whole thing was wrought out; that's why the Effigies happened, because if somebody else was in this band (not me), I'd pay to see them, and I'd pay to buy my own records. I don't think alot of these people in bands would pay to buy their own records. It's like let's see how we can put one over on people,or it's more like "gee, look what they have gotten away with, we can do that too."
John Babbin: Yea. "We're a band we may as well put out a record; we're a band we may as well play out too, we may as well tour!"
John: These people have no standards, when they do have standards it usually means they'll try to be identical to whoever they look up to. I mean like Black Flag was real big at one point,so you get a whole slew of bands who sound like Black Flag, then the Dead Kennedys come in, etc.
TS: Don't you think it's like '77 though; you'11 have tons of bands but the ones who are dedicated will survive? Like 60's garage rock?
John: The reason we're survivors is cause we're serious about what we are doing. We can't make money at this, I got a regular job, I can't make enough money off the band right, alot of these people figure you got to underproduce your records, you can only gig a certain amount of times... I say look, you've got to have a certain amount of professionalism in what you do to get the point across, to say yea, we're serious about the band. That's why we can play our instrument...you gotta do certain things in order to survive and make your music better in order to progress; progress meaning we want other things.
TS: What do you hope you end up like?
John: I really can't tell you. If you look at one band who I'd say has made it, one band who still has enough integrity to keep on doing what they're doing, I'd say The Who. That's one band that I think are a great band, and their latest album is a piece of junk, I wouldn't buy it. On the other hand, Pete Townshend solo albums are good, and I still like them, I wouldn't buy them just out of principle. I think they're a good band, a thoughtful band. I think what they do they do well. I think they maintain a certain set of standards.
TS: Do you get flack from people who only like hardcore, and listen to "Security" and hate it?
John: "Security" we get slagged off on all the time. It was a really well-planned single is what it was, a double A side. "Bodybag" will go to the hardcores, and "Security will go to the more disc-riminating "palates." We don't mean that to be snobs, because it's a real simple song. Me, Paul, the bass player, and the drummer wrote that when we were going to form a band with this other guy and that fell through. That was our song, right, it had a real good rh-ythm, the lyrics just sort of bounce along with the rhythm. It's a great song. We felt it ought to be on the record. It's amazing what kind of feedback we get from it.
TS: You don't like heavy metal?
John: I don't like heavy metal, I think its real corny music. I think its bad.
TS: What do you think of Motorhead and Girlschool?
John: I think they stink. I saw Girlschool and they were really bad. I think they were playing up the fact that they are ap all-girl, band. That's fine, but I think the Runaways did what they did a thousand times better. It's just the novelty of an allgirl band. Motorhead, I think,they're just for a laugh. So when does the joke end? They just keep putting out the same stuff, and it sells more and more. They're stupid, they are a dumb band, they're not even entertaining. People say it doesn't have to be smart, it can be entertaining, to me that's not even entertainment. They are just juggling a bunch cf India clubs for three hours.
TS: Every band is having problems with touring, and getting their name around, and it's impossible to get on a major label. Do you think it can get any better? Do you think the next time you'll tour there will be a better circuit or something?
John: It's a real interesting point about major labels. If someone came to me and said we are going to give you money to put out records, do whatever you want. Only a fool wouldn't take that chance. People have this concept of selling out. Selling out means changing and conceding certain parts of you to a record company which is garbage. Look at a band like X. They get signed to Elektra; they didn't change their sound, I can't tell. I don't think they've become more commercial. On the other hand, there comes a point, when we've got a record that's like sitting to be put out for 3 months it's mixed down but it can't go anywhere because we don't have any money. We lose money on our tours, we really don't gig at home. There comes a point when you need money to do things and we really can't do them right now. We've been turned down by all the English labels, we were trying to get our record pressed over there. We get turned down by even the smallest labels. One label said we weren't hardcore enough, but we weren't pop enough either. So here we are stuck in the middle.
TS: There's Jello's label, Alternative Tentacles?
John: We wrote them (in Eng.), and they said talk to Jello. We don't get along that well with the Dead Kennedys. Not that I hate them. The Dead Kennedys are the Dead Kennedys, and we don't want to have to answer to them. We didn't open for them when they played in Chicago for those reasons. They are getting paid alot of money for what they are doing, and we don't think it's our job to open up for any West Coast band that's coming into Chicago and get $100, when they are getting whatever they are getting paid, which is alot of $.
TS: Do you think alot of the problem is 'cause of magazines like NY Rocker?
John: NY Rocker is out of touch. This guy in a band called, A Blind Dog Stares, he was telling me that those people are just in cahoots with each other, they're just one big clique that runs NY Rocker, they're all into the dBs and the Bongos; not that those bands are bad, it's just their duty if they are going, to put out a rock magazine to find out about other bands, if not for themselves, if for their reading public.
TS: Oh I forgot to ask you, how long have you been together?
John: It will be two years this October.
TS: Where is it from here?
John Babbin: Richmond, Baltimore, Connecticut, New York, Boston, Courtland (N.Y.), Cincinnati, and Pontiac.
TS: What have the crowds been like?
John: In Toronto we had a real bad night. It was the first night of our tour. It was the worst PA.
John Babbin: They didn't even dance the second set to Vice Squad. I don't know what's wrong with people in Canada. Maybe it wasn't the people, we had a bad sound system.
John: There are some cool people in Canada, I guess you really can't blame them. Our records don't get over there, no-one knows who we are.
John Babbin: The Canadian/American border is like this major buffer zone. Nobody knows anything about crossover. D.O.A. is the only Canadian band people have heard of. There's lots of bands up there, some of them are probably pretty good, there's just the major problems with the border, like work permits and stuff. People who who want to support and help American bands up there are non-existent, and the people who do, don't have the legal machinery to get you up there. It's very difficult to do, I used to manage the Toxic Reasons before they got kicked out(of Canada), after I left them, apparently they went to Calgary. In Calgary you keep doing shows, you make alot of money, but you have to do 3 shows a night, for a month. You get free room and board but it's a real grueling thing. If you need a real lotta money, there are no expenses-its a real cowboy town...They went up there, these bozos had advances of thousands of dollars in their pockets, hundreds of dollars for each of them. Well one of them decided to go ripoff a toothbrush from a store, and they got caught. They didn't get thrown out of the country at that point, but when they didn't have proper permits they got deported over to Montana. There's no way I'm going to go up there without permits. What happens in 3 years if I decide to go up there for a vacation, I'm not going to let one band gig without permits prevent me from going fishing and doing what I want.
John: Alot of these bands feel they have to make a loud statement about their non-conformity or their rebelliousness but there are times when you have to try to get along with whatever people there are, the best you can.
John Babbin: You're in their system, you got to work with them a little bit. Its better if you play the game in certain ways their way, so that way you fit in more, you get more people interested in you.
TS: You get more power.
John Babbin: Yea.
John: It's easier to undermine someting when you are actually within it and part of it.
TS: Who writes the songs?
John: I write the lyrics, and the whole band writes the music.
Their label, Ruthless Records, is involved with groups such as Big Black, 6 Feet Under, and Naked Raygun, but their talk about these groups did not come out that clearly on the tape for some reason.
TS: What are you listening to?
John: There are a few bands, the (Angelic) Upstarts, the Stranglers, the Oi 3 album, Splodge, lots of old stuff, old Gang of Four.
John Babbin: The Black Flag album--Damaged.
TS: Have you seen the Flesheaters?
John: Yea, we played with them they were really good live. Oh, we like Siouxsie, Sham, the U.K. Subs too.
John Babbin: This (show) is alot different than I thought it would be. So many people seem to have come just to see us, so many people know about us. Black Flag cancelled but they don't seem to care. People came down from Pennsylvania for this show!!