INTERVIEW
Interview of John of the EFFIGIES done at the Off Broadway by Tim Yohannon and Jeff Bale
TY: Since last time the EFFIGIES came thru town, there's been lots I've heard, second hand, third hand, and things I've read in print, about your "anti-political punk band" philosophy. Could you comment?
JOHN: As far as that goes--I believe people are individuals. Being a member of a band, I am a spokesman only for me. I don't pretend to speak for others in the band. I write the lyrics. After I sing it, they can do whatever they want with it--they can use it as their "bible" or throw it away and laugh at it. The lyrics are personal. I can't tell anyone what's best for them. I don't even know myself what's best for me. I don't feel that any kind of dogma should enter into it. As far as lumping people together and trying to say "punks unite" or this or that. Sure I'm a punk, but I'm not gonna go ask people to unite cause that's bullshit. What the hell do these people believe? They don't believe what I believe, cause I know talking to these people I play to, they don't know what the fuck I'm about. I try and be honest in what I say. You try to get people to understand your viewpoint and be mature enough to make their own judgment about it and take it or leave it. That's what I feel a lot of the political punk bands aren't doing, they're being a bit more preachy and self-righteous and intolerant of other people.
JB: Since you feel that many people in the audience didn't really understand where you are from, maybe you could try to explain it.
JOHN: Maybe it's my fault. I try to explain it the best I can in lyrics. To write lyrics, you have to demand a certain participation of your audience for them to be fully understood. They've got to be open-minded. They can't be set in any one set of values. I'm not set in any one set of values. I'm changing all the time. That's ideally how I'd like the world to be. Anybody who goes up there on a rock stage and sings is subconsciously trying to get the world to accept them, to force the world to become whatever they think. They're foisting their values on the world. When people accept them blindly, or don't understand them, that's being sheep. It's narrow-minded or stupid, which is what a lot of these people are. It's all concerts. I used to be into heavy metal, but I hate it now cause it's stupid. Now I think this is a better vehicle. I wouldn't have imagined my being in a rock band 5 years ago. But it's a personal thing. You can't tell me that you can get 2 people together and get them to agree. I'm not saying they should beat the shit out of each other, that's bullshit. But accept differences.
TY: Where do you draw the line between preaching and stating a strong opinion?
JOHN: Let's get something straight about bands first. Bands compete in a basic free market--you put your band out on the line. People will either like it or they won't. There's money to be spent and made at concerts. The people that deserve that money are the people who put up with the bullshit. The promoters got their cost etc., but to see the money filtering down to some bullshit like the club owners, they're in it for the big profit. They're making money off the bands. That's ok, but you gotta make sure that they're not the ones who make the money. The bands are the only things that matter. Not the clubs, not the scenes, not the fashions, the bands are what matter. Fuck the goddamned scenes.
JB: I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind that.
JOHN: Ultimately, the bands are the ones that reflect the scene, the ones that go out and bust their ass for the scene. I'm not trying to sound like a martyr, but I've been there and I can see it. How serious are a lot of these people about music. I'm serious enough to chuck my job, chuck this and that. These other people; what the hell are they doing. They're "weekend warriors" like Ted Nugent said. They got their bullshit job--now I understand not everybody can be in a rock band and play and whatever--but the whole idea is to get away from the bullshitty jobs, etc. The scenes don't revolve around bars, they revolve around bands.
JB: If bands reflect the scene, shouldn't they reflect some kind of value system that is consistent with the scene?
JOHN: That's where it all comes into play. If people want to pay to see those bands, they do. That's the ultimate test of a band. If they're good, then they're supported, and they reflect those people that go to see them. If they're smart enough to make a judgment about the band. You don't go show support for a band through benefits, and all this crap. Like at O'Banions (in Chicago), they had this benefit. They said, "EFFIGIES, come play here." We said look, nobody comes to this bar ever. They had this big spread in the paper. Bullshit, everybody comes waving their little flags of solidarity. If you wanna support the bar, go out there and spend your money at it. That's the way it works. If you like the place, support it; if you don't like it, boycott it. Burn it into the ground. Who cares? The capitalists--I believe in that. Basically, people are out for a buck. I don't want to be that way, but that's what motivates a lot of people. I'm trying not to be like that.
JB: It is what motivates a lot of people. But the point is that you have a movement or group of people supposedly trying to get away from a lot of that bullshit. When a band is tying into the same kind of economic bullshit that they're trying to avoid...
JOHN: How can you avoid it?
JB: To a point you can't avoid it. But on the other hand, it seems like you can make every possible effort to distinguish yourselves from those kind of values. For example, you were saying that if people pay money for bands, it proves they're good. But that's what happens at heavy metal concerts too. People will pay $13 to see a band. Does that mean that what they're doing is valuable?
JOHN: Where do you differentiate between bands that have sold out and bands that are just good? You can't do that. The minute a band becomes successful, forget it--they're untouchable. People that do well want to deserve what they get. There are some bands that want to make money. I don't wanna be like that. I believe money corrupts. But on the other hand, suppose the ABC's draw 5000 people and you're putting on the show at $5, you're making 5 grand. So the ABC's say we're worth 4 grand, you gotta pay us. But no, you got expenses, ok; it's a constant struggle. So who deserves the money, you or the ABC's? So everybody cuts the profit. If you don't demand your worth, some asshole's gonna make a million dollars at $10 a head. That's rubbish.
TY: Let's get into specifics a little. Your understandings of the free market system has led to a lot of criticisms of you and to your criticisms of other bands. People say you have aced out other bands, because of your belief in competition, and you have criticized the DK's for "selling out"...
JOHN: I never said the KENNEDYS sold out. We didn't open for them in Chicago because we believed it was basically their gig and we didn't want a part of it, in the sense that the KENNEDYS had their own crowd, and we have ours. There comes a point, if you're ever in a band you'll understand this, that there's a couple of points where you have to start asserting yourself to be your own man. Now, the DK's have real strong ideas, and if you play for them, then you're saying you accept Jello's ideas. I happen to disagree with a couple of them. Personally, it's a matter of principle to not open up for them, not because I hate them. I've never badmouthed the KENNEDYS. They may sound a bit too preachy, I'll admit to that, but aside from that it's a disagreement--the EFFIGIES have their own voice and want to be heard too, and don't have to open for another band to be heard.
TY: Well, in an interview in Forced Exposure, you were complaining that you weren't asked to be on that bill.
JOHN: I don't, no, I don't think that was ever the case. We were asked a couple of times to open up for TSOL and the DKs. Right, we were. I never denied that. When you're in a scene, you have to pace yourselves. You can't gig every night. We chose a couple of gigs for what they would get us. It's just that, you're in a band to be in a band. I'm not so crazed about making a success of myself. But on the other hand I get disenchanted with certain portions of the audience, and I want to appeal to other people, and that's exposure you can't get with other gigs. The big thing was the X thing. We open up for X, and we won't open up for the DKs. So OK, big deal, OK. The point was that at the X gig we played to alot of people who wouldn't ordinarily see us. A lot of people think punk rock is smashing people's skulls. We wanted to play for these people and say "Look, we're better than these people, X, who we're opening up for, and we got this to offer, and this is your own home town". I don't like X, I don't support them. It was a gig, an opportune moment, and we took it.
TY: In other words, sometimes you compromise your ethic that you stated earlier about not opening for a band you don't believe in, or believe what they believe in. Tonight, opening for TSOL, who you're not fond of. But in the case of the DKs, who you spent alot of time attacking in Forced Exposure, it surprises me because I know Jello has been totally supportive of you guys (even is wearing an EFFIGIES t-shirt tonight, despite having read that interview) like when you came out here last. Is it a competitive jealousy on your part?
JOHN: OK, it is in a way. But getting back to that X thing. When you go to a concert, and I personally think we played better than they did, that's not a compromise of what I was saying. What I was saying was you could go to a gig and put an impression on people and just say...look, if you play for the DKs who are a pretty intensive political band, ok; well, X are a pretty frivolous band, that are just basically...
JB: ...In it for the money?
JOHN: Right. OK, if you go to a gig and present yourself that way, you're doing them more of a disservice by showing up and playing a good set, OK? Just in the same way, if we blow them off the stage, it's getting into the muck of things, just saying here's the alternative, present yourself, and that should be all people need to see the light.
JB: Let's take another example. There are shows put on where all the bands go into it, sharing a certain value system, want to keep the tickets prices low, maybe draw lots to see who plays first, and all take an equal share of the money. To me, that's what an alternative represents in this kind of a situation . You yourself have admitted that American culture is based on profit motivation. If you're in a subculture which ostensibly (obviously not all individuals are going to conform ) holds to a different value system, then I think it's important for people who are in that subculture to show that...yes, you can do things in a different way. You don't have to fall into the same competitive trap.
JOHN: I think you're just too idealistic. To me, it's this notion of human nature. Specifically, can you say that it's been superceded anywhere? Can you actually say that anybody in the punk movement has actually had its own scene where there isn't competition? There isn't. Human nature, and this is probably where we start disagreeing on certain things, is a real powerful thing. I'm not saying you can't overcome it. But I'm saying that alot of people don't. But I won't tell them that. I'll tell them in the music. Now, the thing is, I can't believe that you bring together people like that and have them give up any kind of competition, jealousy...
JB: It's not an either/or situation.
TY: If your lyrics say one thing, but the way your band functions economically is another thing...In other words, the lyrics may be talking about rebelling or being an alternative, but the way you behave is exactly as you're 'supposed to function', then you're full of contradictions within yourself.
JOHN: The whole base of it is that human nature, that's me, ok, and I'm rebelling against that. That's what society is based on. I don't know what the fuckin' answer is.
TY: That's almost schizo. You're rebelling and conforming strongly at the same time.
JOHN: Conforming? I don't really see that. I'm not encouraging competition...
TY: You are talking about competition though.
JOHN: Well, in a way what I'm talking about is accepting it, and taking it in the most positive way. It's almost like, instead of making war, let's play football. It's a bullshit mentality, right. It's a jock mentality. But on the other hand, what do the jocks have, or don't have, that we do. Well, I like to think I've got some brains. I don't know about anybody else. I like to think that I've got things to learn, things to see, and the world is a big, wide open space, and I'm open to all of it. That's what I have. I'm not going to fight bullshit. Now my own band, I'm not actually competing against bands. It's sort of really passive competition. You're letting the audience decide what to do. I'm not going around slitting bands' tires. I'm not going around unplugging their equipment in the middle of their sets. I'm presenting myself and saying "here I am". I don't do it just for that, you understand. What I talk about and shit, that's what's important. If you realize that's the way gigs are gonna be run and shit, that's the way it is.
JB: Yeah, but the point is that you guys are a good band. But the fact of the matter is, if you're basing your whole reason for existence on the marketplace...
JOHN: We're not, we're not.
JB: ...and who is gonna pay to see you. What's the difference in attitude between that and what Ted Nugent does? I mean, thousands of people see him. Does that mean he's representing those people?
JOHN: That's where you draw the line. That's what's gonna separate good bands from bad. If people have enough of an enlightenment about what makes a good band good, and what makes people say "yeah, Ted Nugent is an asshole". You've got to put them in the same arena, and compete 'em against each other. That's what I tell everybody else. I say "Look, you're not competing against TSOL really, you're competing against the Led Zepplins." Ultimately these are the people you gotta fuckin' bullshit with, right? The thing is, if there's no separation between Ted Nugent and me, let the people go see Ted Nugent. But there is, and that's why I think ultimately that people will decide...even if, fuck, we don't draw a billion people...who cares. I'd rather have the satisfaction of knowing, in my heart, that I did a better job; that I've been more honest in my music; that we have more integrity.
JB: Here's something to mull over in your mind. The fact is that "human nature" is a very elusive thing, and nobody even knows if there is a "human nature". When you grow up in a certain society, you're socialized by the values of that society from the time you're a kid. Maybe the fact that people are so cutthroat here has to do with when they were growing up they were subjected to those kind of values. And if people want to break away from those values, they've got to stop and say "enough is enough" maybe the society is gonna function in this fucked-up manner, but we're gonna do it differently. We're gonna co-operate with bands, we're gonna try to keep the ticket prices low.
JOHN: What happens when you dig deeper than that? Ultimately, if you keep digging, keep putting the blocks together in your own scheme of avoiding competition, and this and that--how does it work? Why does society work the way it does? Here things have to work a certain way, but you believe that probably people can co-operate...
JB: There's lots of evidence of things like that happening.
TY: We're getting low on tape now, so let's..
JB: OK, I'd like to quickly change the subject to the Oi phenomena that's developing in Chicago. I've heard that there are some Neo-Nazi assholes involved.
JOHN: The point is that these guys who pretend to be British skinheads, they don't really understand what it's about. I mean, I'm a skinhead. My hair is real short, right. I understand the British skinhead thing; I've been over there, I'm a skinhead, but I'm not a fuckin' fascist. I am what I am. You can take me or fuckin' leave me. If I have ideas that swing to the right, fine, but I'm not imposing 'em. I'll admit I'm a pretty conservative guy personally, but I don't preach any kind of dogma. Take the fuckin' songs for what they are.
TY: What is your feeling about what "skinhead" is?
JOHN: To me, skinhead is an aggressive rebellion against what exists. That's not to say passive, not bullshit violence. To me it's total control of your destiny. I am what I am, and I've got control of it. And that means nobody's gonna tell me fuckin' what to do. And if it comes down to it, aggression is what it is. I'm for violence, if it's the right kind.
JB: What is the right kind?
JOHN: It's be aggressive and take care of yourself, and people will leave you alone. That's all I want.
TY: Isn't punk the same?
JOHN: Not anymore. The whole word punk has been twisted, it doesn't mean shit anymore. It's what the media wants. People call me a Punk rocker. No I'm not a punk, I'm a skinhead. I'd rather say I'm a skinhead than a punk, because punk is distorted. And people who aren't awake enough to see that it's been distorted...it was a shock for me to admit to myself that punk rock is dead. The word punk, and the people getting into it now are idiots. I don't want to associate myself with that.
JB: Maybe, but people who are getting into Oi and skinhead are even bigger idiots.
JOHN: Oi is like a bullshit phenomena.
JB: That's right, it's a phony phenomena that Gary Bushell created.
JOHN: Exactly right. But on the other hand, the skinhead thing goes way back. It's got a history, back to the hippie days. And personally, I don't agree with any of that hippie shit, I don't agree with left-wing, I don't agree with group commune type existence. I don't care if you wanna do it, go ahead and do it. I just don't agree with it.
TY: You say you're a conservative type of person. In what ways?
JOHN: In my personal habits, I'm not into rock'n'roll to do drugs, to fuck alot of chicks. I'm not into that. It's a personal thing.
TY: How about In a broader sense? You used the term right wing to describe yourself.
JOHN: You know where the extreme left and right meet; it's called anarchy.
JB: No, that's exactly the opposite.
JOHN: Alright, where does it meet?
JB: They meet in a totalitarian, centralized, authoritarian society. Anarchism is a decentralized, non-authoritarian society.
JOHN: Let's just say that I'm an individual in favor of less control of everything, right?
TY: That's anarchy.
JOHN: I knew that when you guys sat me down here, you were gonna try to put a label on me.
JB: No, we're trying to find out what you believe. I'm a little confused about it, honestly.
JOHN: That's the way it is. Ultimately, these left and right extremes meet and....
Well, at this point the tape did run out. We went on to discuss many other things, including John's dislike of the macho aspects of the scene; his wish that more women were involved In a more serious way; his rejection of racism; his lack of respect and support for the newer up-and-coming Chicago bands (who he feels should have to 'scrape their way up like the EFFIGIES); his dislike of hardcore bands (who he feels don't know what they are singing about with their anti-Reagan/anti-WWIII songs).